22nd September 2018
Established 1872. Online since 1996.

Not akin to fascists (Donald J MacLeod)

, by , in Readers' Views

As a member of the SNP who lost 34 relations from the Isles of Lewis and Harris in the two world wars, fighting German aggression, I strongly object to abusive unionists like Graham Johnston (Readers’ views, 5th April) inferring that SNP supporters are akin to German fascists.

My relations made the supreme sacrifice as follows: 17 Royal Navy; six Merchant Navy: six Highland Infantry Regiments; one Royal Engineers; one Australian Infantry; one Canadian Infantry; one New Zealand Engineers and one Royal Air Force.

Fourteen of my relations were decorated for bravery in the world wars; six serving with the Royal Navy; two in the Merchant Navy; four in the army and two in the Royal Air Force. Two of these awards were posthumous decorations.

The breakdown of the votes in the referendum may be of interest to Mr Johnston and other correspondents: native-born Scots, 52.7 per cent yes, 47.3 per cent no; born in rest of UK, 29.9 per cent yes, 72.1 per cent no; born outside the UK, 42.9 per cent yes, 57.1 per cent no. The voters in Scotland voted no, but those of us born in Scotland voted yes.

Donald J MacLeod
49 Woodcroft Avenue,
Bridge of Don,
Aberdeen.

75 comments

  1. David McDowall

    Why should it matter where people were born? Are you inferring there is something lesser about a non scottish born persons vote? That it would have been fine if not for all those not born here? That would be a very interesting message to give out.

    I would also suggest those who live here by choice and not accident of birth could arguably have a more logical thought process behind their vote than those who could get swept up in patriotism.

    • Stuart Hannay

      Yes, I thought the letter was doing well up until then countering the image of the SNP as small-minded nationalists. Personally, I don’t believe that most SNP members are like that but it doesn’t help. Especially when the first letter in today’s ST accuses the SNP of being precisely that.

  2. Ali Inkster

    So I take it that soothmoothers votes won’t count up here then? Douglas Young better fetch de coat.

  3. Robin Stevenson

    I take your point Donald, I too get sick and tired of the bile spouted by certain brainless individuals, that continually use derogatory and down right insulting terms, simple because they don’t agree with your political views [they know who they are]

    With regard to David’s comment “Why should it matter where people were born?” I believe it matters a great deal?…. I’m proud to have been born in Scotland and proud of my country, my history, my heritage, my ancestry, I don’t believe that Donald was saying that because you’re not from Scotland this would [somehow] make you a “lesser” voter, I think he was showing that the people of Scotland, [the ones born and bred here and have history here], would be seen to be [statistically] more inclined to vote for an independent Scotland, this is by no means a “dig” at those not born here, but merely a simple fact of life, those from elsewhere, will also have an affinity to wherever they regard as their “Homeland”. In a sense it could be perceived as, not what’s best for the country but what’s best for them.

    There is nothing wrong with “Patriotism”, but when this is referred, by some, to be some kind of “fascist nationalism”, it is completely wrong, and both insulting to ourselves and to the memory of those that gave their lives so that we may exist in a free and democratic society.

    • Gordon Harmer

      If what you say about Davids comments and now yours, is true why did he concentrate on one aspect of the poll he gets his figures from. That poll included age, gender and religion amongst other things in its findings not just nationality. As you say there is nothing wrong with patriotism but patriotism is not nationalism because nationalism has a very ugly side and I am afraid that side shines through in these columns far too often by certain individuals who also know who they are.

      • Robin Stevenson

        Gordon, we can demonise many words, but that it based on individual interpretation, your version of “nationalism” is clearly not my version of “nationalism”, does this make all types of “nationalism” bad then?

        There is also a “very ugly side” to unionism, but would anyone be silly enough to believe that ALL “unionism” is a bad thing?

  4. iantinkler

    I would never regard most SNP supporters as as small-minded nationalists, however they are still, often unknowingly, following a divisive creed, however cleverly disguised, promoted by small-minded nationalists. Anyone whom doubts this, look to the history of Alex Salmond ( and the Independent Republic of Socialist Scotland). Alex had a mantra, so divisive and unpleasant, he was actually expelled from the SNP!,
    He and his prodigy Nicola, have not changed nor ever denounced those views.. They are just a lot more sophisticated with there misinformation and propaganda.

    • Robin Stevenson

      Ian, “The Independent Republic of Socialist Scotland”, was founded in 1998 by the SSP [Scottish Socialist Party] which has nothing to do with Alex Salmond OR Nicola Sturgeon? are you sure you’re not getting a ted mixed up?
      Perhaps you could you tell us what this “so divisive and unpleasant mantra” was supposed to be that had Alex Salmond expelled from the SNP? do you mean the 79 group when 8 members [inc A Salmond] wanted the SNP to become more left wing, and were expelled, only to be readmitted when the SNP realised that they were actually right after all?
      Why would they denounce Alex Salmonds views when they adopted them Ian?

  5. David McDowall

    A couple of points Robin Stevenson. First I was born in Scotland. Second I disagree entirely that it matters where someone was born. If they live here then Independence affects them so their vote counts. If those not born here voted “not what’s best for the country but what’s best for them” and that was not independence then surely that tells you that independence was not seen as being beneficial to the average man on the street when pure logic was used. That those born here were being swayed by something other than logic?
    I worry that as well intentioned as this analysis is it provides no benefit other than creating divisions.

  6. Robin Stevenson

    David, IF what you say that “it doesn’t matter where someone was born”, why then do Scots living abroad that have made their home in another country, give a jot to the welfare of their homeland? surely now that they have become Canadian, Australian, South African etc, they should simply care less what happens to the “old country”? ..I’m sorry, but I’m afraid [having lived in various parts of the globe] and have been befriended by various “Caledonian societies” that I can’t agree with your analogy, it’s simply naive.
    Logic, may have played a part for a few that came to realise that this is where they now live and voted accordingly, but from Donalds statistics, for me, they indicate that most voted for their own [personal] reasons not for the betterment of their adopted home.

    • John Tulloch

      Or, perhaps, they voted on the basis of a logical assessment of what was actually best for the “betterment of their new ‘Homeland'”, as opposed to some misplaced romanticism about the 700th anniversary of Bannockburn?

      • Robin Stevenson

        The key word is “Perhaps”, but doesn’t it seem a little coincidental that 72.1% from elsewhere in the UK voted No, and 52.7% born in Scotland voted yes? are there really that many disillusioned Scots that are so caught up with their “misplaced romanticism”, that they are unable to recognise what’s best for their country of birth? I think you’re doing your fellow Scot a disservice John, I’ve never considered Scots to be less intelligent than our incoming neighbours?

      • John Tulloch

        Absolutely, no less intelligent, Robin, but the patriotism you extolled, previously, can interfere with reasoning because it deploys a different part of the brain.

        Patriotism is a feeling, an emotion, not a reason; so the less-recently evolved parts of the brain are mobilised to action which can overwhelm the more recently evolved parts mobilised for reasoning and logic.

        Many people have been swept along on a wave of emotion, the kind of thing Billy Graham tapped into, leading to the huge surge in support for the SNP, especially, evident among the young and impressionable.

      • Robin Stevenson

        Aah!…So it was all about the romantic patriotic side of their brain that made 45% of Scottish voters vote for Independence? and it was the logical, sensible well-balanced side of the brain that made 55% vote No then?

        LOL….Thankyou Doctor, I’ve never heard so much guff in years.

      • John Tulloch

        @Robin,

        Lewis Carroll nailed it (‘Through the Looking Glass’ (1872)) – Shetland voters, note well:

        “O Oysters, come and walk with us!”
        The Walrus did beseech.
        “A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
        Along the briny beach:
        We cannot do with more than four,
        To give a hand to each.”

        The eldest Oyster looked at him,
        But never a word he said:
        The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
        And shook his heavy head–
        Meaning to say he did not choose
        To leave the oyster-bed.

        But four young Oysters hurried up,
        All eager for the treat:
        Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
        Their shoes were clean and neat—-

        Four other Oysters followed them,
        And yet another four;
        And thick and fast they came at last,
        And more, and more, and more–
        All hopping through the frothy waves,
        And scrambling to the shore.

        “But wait a bit,” the Oysters cried,
        “Before we have our chat;
        For some of us are out of breath,
        And all of us are fat!”
        “No hurry!” said the Carpenter—-

        “A loaf of bread,” the Walrus said,
        “Is what we chiefly need:
        Pepper and vinegar besides
        Are very good indeed–
        Now if you’re ready, Oysters dear,
        We can begin to feed.”

        “But not on us!” the Oysters cried,
        Turning a little blue.
        “After such kindness, that would be
        A dismal thing to do!”
        “The night is fine,” the Walrus said.
        “Do you admire the view?

        (Excerpt from The Walrus and the Carpenter)

        http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/walrus.html

      • John Tulloch

        @Robin,

        Your local SNP Shetland lieutenants have been gloating, endlessly, for months, about the sudden big surge in support for the SNP. Now, I know you won’t want to hear this, however, it’s particularly evident among the young and reminiscent of ‘herd-like’ behaviour, ‘running with the crowd’.

        “Herd-like behaviour” is not inspired by the use of parts of the brain used for logical reasoning, rather, it is directed by those parts responsible for more primitive survival instincts, like ‘safety in numbers’, etc.

        These may be perfectly sensible in the presence of a pride of lions, however, they are somewhat less useful when it comes to deciding whether to vote for or against the secession of Scotland from the UK or whom to elect to govern the country.

        And no, this isn’t down to me thinking Scots are stupid, they aren’t. It’s a failing common to all of humanity, as well as to other species, and one on which politicians, among others, prey and feed, voraciously.

  7. David McDowall

    Robin,
    It was not an analogy and it most certainly is not naive.
    You state again that you think people voted for what was better for them and not their county. Surely the fact that so many people saw I dependence as good for them tells you something? If the cold hard logic said to them I dependence was not better for them, and by extension the average voter, then what made the difference to the people born here? Why was their logic different?
    I fail to see how you can try to write off their vote or explain it away. I fail to see the benefit in that other than to cause divisions.
    Independence did not make its case to the majority if voters who live here and are invested in here. That is the long and the short if it.

    • Robin Stevenson

      No-one is trying to cause division David? [apart from yourself having mentioned it twice] I am merely evaluating the figures presented by Donald, you come to your conclusion on the matter, as I come to mine, IF you imagine that it makes no difference where you’re born and that has no influence on your vote, then I completely disagree with your assessment, so far you’ve offered nothing to convince me otherwise on the matter?

      You said “Surely the fact that so many people saw dependence was good for them tells you something”, Yes it does, it tells me that IF you have to “Depend” on anyone else, other than take the responsibility of your own life or destiny, then in my eyes, this is a sad indication of living in a “Nanny society”, one of which I’d much rather not, but then again, maybe it’s just me being a grown up?

  8. Henry Condy

    I read letters, a few filled with an almost maniacal hatred of Salmond and the SNP. Lies ,statistics, designed to mesmermise the ordinary person, it’s only when the boss of NHS Shetland comes along, and gives the true facts are the blowhards shown up to be what they really are. But in their demented minds they are right and everyone is out of step. To mention the war and Germany in today’s context is an insult to all who lost loved ones, but hey if you scare people with this poison, then job done, this is a General election, do not be fooled by the scaremongers, If you want five more years of having the boot put in to the weakest, vote Tory, simple as that, on a final point, I am a Scot, born in Scotland, who please tell me, says my country has to ask Westminster if we can have a referendum, we are a proud nation, more than able to look after ourselves, in Scotland immaterial of your race, religion, we pull together, to look after our fellow man, have a good day.

    • John Tulloch

      We’ve just had five years of the “boot being put in”, Hendry – centralisation, withholding RET from Shetland ferry routes while installing it everywhere else, seizing the SIC’s £2.3 Mpa housing support grant intended by Westminster to compensate for 1970s oil boom loan interest payments, which is STILL BEING PAID TO HOLYROOD and with a little help from COSLA, under-funding Shetland’s education system by 25 percent, even after swingeing SIC education cuts.

      Hendry, wake up and smell the coffee!

      • Robin Stevenson

        John, have you heard of CD’s or MP3’s yet?….It’s just that you’ve been playing that broken record for weeks now?….. The sad part is, you were as wrong then as you are now. [at least you grudgingly acknowledge COSLA….sigh/]

      • John Tulloch

        Alas, Robin, you didn’t read my comment about pseudo-historians “trying to re-frame history to suit their own perspectives”. The facts are:

        1. The SNP has centralised everything theynhave manged to get their hands on – fire service, police, etc.

        2. SIC were paid ‘housing support grant’ by Westminster to compensate for LOAN INTEREST incurred for 1970s oil boom housing which continued to be paid via Holyrood after devolution. All Scottish governments honoured the arrangement until housing minister Margaret Burgess dishonoured it by stopping it in 2012.

        Holyrood still receives the money from Westminster.

        3. The SNP (in cahoots with COSLA) has presided over 40 percent under-funding of Shetland’s education, now reduced to 25 percent due to 20 percent spending cuts by SIC.

        4. Road Equivalent Tariff calculations have been fiddled to ensure that Shetland will not benefit, providing an excuse for leaving Shetland to be the last to benefit.

        I’m sorry, Robin et al, that is a lamentable track record – and I haven’t even mentioned Viking Energy!

      • Robin Stevenson

        John, I have to admit that I didn’t read your comment, generally most of them are much a muchness so I’m afraid I don’t read them all, Oops!….

        1. Centralising the Police and the Fire service is bad?…Why?…..I.m not too sure what “etc” is so I can’t comment?

        2. SIC have been receiving £2.3 Mpa since 1971 [according to you] so that’s SIC have received £101.2 Million on a £40 Million historic debt, and you think it’s a great idea to just keep throwing £2.3 Mpa at it forever and ever?…really?

        3. Not happy that Shetlands grant is being decided by COSLA, you’re now saying that the SNP are in cahoots with COSLA?…..such a shame, for a second there I thought your were “getting it”.

        4. RET, your latest SNP = BaaaD mantra?….I won’t even attempt to explain that one.

        Viking energy was the SNPs fault too no doubt? no-one was notified it was never discussed no-one bothered reducing the numbers from 200 turbines to 103 then? SIC had no idea what was going on and nobody benefits, is that about it?

  9. David McDowall

    Robin, surely independence is just switching one nanny for another? Why would a politician who knows very little about me and mine in Edinburgh serve me any better than a politician in London?
    If you don’t want the nanny then you want something other than independence I would suggest.
    I also said it was divisive because the initial letter stated “The voters in Scotland voted no, but those of us born in Scotland voted yes.”.
    If you do not see how drawing such a stark line of those of us born here voted yes is divisive then the is no point in discussing this any further.

  10. iatinkler

    Robin Stevenson, you wrote, “do you mean the 79 group when 8 members [inc A Salmond] wanted the SNP to become more left wing, and were expelled, only to be readmitted when the SNP realised that they were actually right after all?” Correct me if I am wrong but was not the “79 Group” striving for a Republican, Socialist and Independent Scotland. Do you not feel it speaks volumes about Salmond’s integrity and principles that had, a committed “radical socialist” on expulsion from the SNP gets a job as a consultant in a bank! Is it not ironic as soon as he sees the alliance with the monarchy may be a vote winner he conveniently forgets his republican posturing? Is it not a little unreal that a committed anti-nuclear, anti-Trident campaigner should advocate tor full NATO membership of an Indi Scotland? Thus permitting the very trident Submarines, he is so against to use all and any Scottish ports without question? Henry Condy, you wonder why I dislike Salmond, perhaps it his honesty (lack off), duplicity and divisiveness, that colours my views. Have you noticed how Nicola Sturgeon sees all the before mentioned as OK, and meekly accepts all? I do not care for her much either.

    • Robin Stevenson

      Ian, I’m not quite sure where you picked up this “radical socialist” from? perhaps you read it in one of our [completely biased] MSM dailies? Rather than reading certain columnists personal slants on the matter, perhaps it would be better just to read the facts?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/79_Group

  11. Sandy McDonald

    I can recall hearing in a radio debate the moderator informing the teams that the first team to compare the others views/opinions/arguments to the Nazi’s and/or Hitler would automatically loose! This was later backed up by that national fountain of knowledge Stephen Fry. Henceforth in any debate related to the upcoming election the first person to mention the Nazi’s and/or Hitler looses. These are the new rules. This includes statements such as “I’m not comparing Mr/Mrs xxxxx to Hitler, but….”.

    • Robin Stevenson

      If only that was the case Sandy,…… Having said that who’d take the place of the “usual suspects”? One wonders if I’d actually miss the ill-informed gibberish?….Nah!!!

      • John Tulloch

        No need to mention Hitler and the Nazis, Robin, it’s much more fun to keep referring to the SNP’s track record in Shetland during their terms of office.

        Have you seen the Blackadder episode when he keeps saying “MacBeth” to the old theatrical actor ‘luvvies’?

        I only need to say “Housing support grant”, “education under-funding” or “RET scam” to send the SNP into a similar, excrutiating ritual as that deployed by the Georgian actors to defuse the bad luck associated with “MacBeth!”

        http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2n7og6_don-t-mention-macbeth-blackadder-bbc_fun?start=20#from=embediframe

        Enjoy!

        Oh! I nearly forgot…… “Education under-funding!” 🙂

      • Robin Stevenson

        Excellent John, I thank thee,…Hmm you seem a in an almost pleasant mood, is the sun shining or did you just watch Nicola’s manifesto launch? 🙂

    • George Kippets

      Well, I hate to have to break this to you, Sandy, and shatter your comfortable illusions, but sometimes people on the BBC get things wrong – yes, even that perennial know-it-all Mr Fry. But thank you for laying down the law – isn’t it fun/

      PS: It’s “loses” not “looses” which means you lose according to the new rules which I just made up by which any spelling error automatically forfeits the argument. Someone said so on the Internet so it must be true!

      • Sandy McDonald

        Jeez George, take it easy, it was just a bit of light hearted banter. Apologies to the grammar police.

    • Ali Inkster

      If the cap fits Sandy.

  12. iatinkler

    Not very difficult to find the facts here, Robin Stevenson. Salmond’s actions in “The House” and his own words speak for themselves. Radical Socialist, do you mean Salmond is not a radical socialist?
    (Radical = A person who believes in major change. It comes from the Latin word for ‘root’; so the radical believes not just in minor change like reform, but to change the very root, or heart, of the system.)
    Perhaps, Robin, you should read up a bit about “79 group” and the reason Salmond was expelled from the SNP before he became a consultant adviser to the Bank. RBS, that bank which so spectacularly failed nearly bankrupting the UK. Funny thing was Salmond sent congratulations to “Fred the Shed” (Sir Fred Goodwin) for doing such a good job with RBS, just before it went belly up, greatest business failure in Scotland’s history. Nice on Alex, sound sense of financial judgement. ! https://www.google.ca/search?as_q=RBS+%22Fred+The+Shed%22&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=&gws_rd=ssl

    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090918191938AAE9qYv

  13. Robin Stevenson

    These links you provide are all good and well Ali, but tell me nothing about what Alex Salmond’s “own words”? Are you just making it up in the hope I don’t look at the detail? It’s really quite easy to understand, so I’ll try yo explain it [again] Alex Salmond and another 7 members of the SNP thought that the party needed to be taken to the left, they were expelled from the party as a result, later it was realised that that seemed a rather good idea after all and they were invited to rejoin and their new direction was established. Simples 🙂 IF you choose to call that “radical” then I suppose it was kinda? [although I don’t believe the word was ever used as such?]

    • Ali Inkster

      What inks would this be Wrobin?

      • Robin Stevenson

        Oops My bad Ali, I meant Ian, sometimes it’s quite difficult to distinguish between you both, as you’re generally singing from the same hymn sheet,…Ooh!…and btw, what exactly is “Wrobin”?…I didn’t realise that speech impediments affected a person’s typing too?

      • Ali Inkster

        It’s shorthand for Wrong again Robin.

  14. ian tinkler

    Ali, Wrobin? has got his names mixed up, a bit like some of his facts. Robin Stevenson , I am Ian, reading should be within your gift, assessing information and facts may be a different matter however. Now try a bit harder, Simples 🙂

  15. ian tinkler

    ” you’re generally singing from the same hymn sheet,” Yes, robin, we share a dislike of Nationalism, Nicola and Alex parrot the same dogma together also, that is until a surreptitious change of view might win a few extra votes, then the hymn sheet is completely re-written! Anti Nuclear yet pro NATO nukes, Clean energy yet pro coal and dirty Longartten, Anti fraking and clean gas yet exploit every ounce of polluting oil. Once in a generation but only if nothing changes. Anti Westminster yet stand for Westminster. Republican yet supports the monarchy. Socialist yet works in a bank praising arch capitalist Shred the job cutter. Shouts freedom yet praises Putin. The never ending two faces of master and disciple.

    • Robin Stevenson

      What aload of convoluted nonsense you talk Ian,

      1. Antinuclear, yes, but while there is a risk from other – less responsible – nations trying to get their hands on nuclear capabilities, it would seem logical [at this time] to be under the umbrella of NATO. this doesn’t mean to say that at some point in the future you decide to abolish ALL nuclear weapons? but I’d rather have a seat at the table in order to make changes.

      2. Scotland are miles ahead of the rUK when it comes to renewables, Longannet, should be kept operational until such times that we have 100% renewable, meanwhile it’s a necessary evil. [not a choice]

      3. Fracking is NOT clean, quite the opposite, it isn’t banned from in certain countries for no reason?

      4. While Scotland is ruled by Westminster then the best way forward for the Scottish government is to play it’s part of where these rules and regulations [that affect Scottish lives] are made, and at least have some influence.

      5. So, I take it you’re quite happy with England making decisions on Scotlands behalf Ian? In/Out Ref on Europe and if England vote Yes then we all have to just go along with that huh?

      Ian, so far all you’ve actually contributed over the last couple of months is Zilch, nada, nothing, you’ve just whined, moaned, and bitched, is there anything positive about ANY party or policies that you agree with? or are you really Victor Meldrew?

      • iatinkler

        “What aload of convoluted nonsense you talk Ian, Ian, so far all you’ve actually or are you really Victor Meldrew?, or are you really Victor Meldrew?.” Very intelligent comments from Robin Stevenson Erm, Hmmm. If all I had actually contributed over the last couple of months was s Zilch, nada, nothing, why is Robin getting his knickers in such a twist and resorting to name calling? So typical of his comments and fallacious arguments..

  16. Robin Stevenson

    The IFS report, which is based on the gers report, with a little future tinkering to project to 2020. And of course the gers report is based on estimates and guesstimates. Then the dummy reporters take the information as if it is gospel. And the dummy politicians fresh from their expense and other scams, quote the reporters as if it is fact. And then the poor electorate are insecure and will vote for the Unionists because they are spending Scotland’s money so wisely and looking after them. Or so it is hoped.
    That someone will challenge what I state about the gers report is certain, and they will ask me to prove it wrong. When slap bang on the gers report is the statement that it is estimates and guesstimates re cost and revenue allocation to Scotland. That someone who has read the reporters statements and listened to the corrupt politicians but never digested the gers report. Further it assumes that Scotland’s budget will be one tenth approximately of the UK, thus Scotland will spend on one tenth of the UK budget on Trident, one tenth on the airforce to attack countries that do not pose a threat to Scotland, one tenth of the establishment costs of Westminster, the civil service, the Royal navy ,the royalty etc. Notice how much of the expenditures allocated to Scotland are not incurred in Scotland. Check the gers report and see where this is identified.

  17. iatinkler

    Robin Stevenson
    Yours of April 22nd, 2015 17:24: Now try again in plain English, you appear to have lost your ability to write sense again. I am not able to read gibber.

    • Robin Stevenson

      Apologies Ian, in laymans terms, it basically means that the IFS isn’t worth a jot, at best their figures are guesstimates, they have absolutely NO clue about Scotland’s future investment and NO clue of what the oil price will be next week, never mind 2020, basically it’s think of a number? how bad can we paint it? they are London based and told what to say, as they did during the referendum, another “Scary story” about Scotland being “Too Wee, Too poor, and Too stupid”.

  18. iatinkler

    One for Danus Skene and Robin Stevenson to answer, “Scottish National party leader, claims he, Alex Salmond, will be writing the next Labour budget.” Salmond’s little puppet and disciple, Nicola Sturgeon, meekly makes no comment. Just what will we get from an SNP, Labour vote? Come on Danus how about an honest view from a true Liberal, even if your aspirations for Westminster have rather corrupt your Jo Grimond principles. Your comment please Robin Stevenson, I could do with a good laugh.

    • Robin Stevenson

      If you remember the Tory picture of Alex Salmond with Ed Miliband in his top pocket? This was an Alex Salmond “tongue in cheek” comment that has been pounced upon by all parties and the media as if it was some kind of admission that he would indeed be writing the next Labour budget, in response to the question Alex replied “Mr Cameron has obviously had a sense of humour bypass”, but, much like yourself Ian, let’s hear the “Faux outrage”?…or is that what you mean by a good laugh?

  19. Ian tinkle

    Very funny comment from Alex about be writing the next Labour budget, good to see Stewart Hosie, SNP Deputy leader, squirming like a worm on a hook, when asked about Salmond’s joke on TV last night. I have not laughed so much in ages. Nicola been a bit quite about this particular joke.

    • Robin Stevenson

      IF anyone was stupid enough to believe that it was anything more than a joke, then perhaps they should apply as head columnist for the Daily Mail/Record or Telegraph?…Stewart and Nicola were dumbstruck that somebody had actually taken it seriously……

  20. iantinkler

    Mr Hay (SNP candidate) had been exposed as an “anonymous troll who described the majority of Scots as traitors. Neil Hay, who is standing in Edinburgh South, referred to supporters of the UK as “quislings” Now there is a surprise, typical cyberNat troll. NB; Nicola Sturgeon will not sack him, says she will leave that to the voters, no surprise there then. Now come on Robin Stevenson, your comment here?

    • Robin Stevenson

      For goodness sake Ian, give it up man, you sound as desperate as Deputy Dugdale? these comments were made almost 3 years ago?…They must have really scraped the barrel to find these remarks?…So let’s analyze what was said : A quote from the satirical website “Och aye the news”….in reference to a few well known politicians.

      http://bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/city-news/53-quislings.html

      Actually I can’t really be bothered typing out the rest of this “Non story”, judge for yourself.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-serious-case-of-hypocrisy/#more-70153

    • Robert Leslie

      Ian Tinkler, take a look at the Twitter account of Ian Smart, self-confessed Scottish Labour Party hack, for some real bile. Makes Mr Hay look like the Sunday Post.

    • Robert Duncan

      Sadly neither side in the Scottish public debate has a monopoly on abusive idiots. I doubt either side in any public debate does, especially with the likes of Twitter now being the (im)perfect media for people to speak before they think. You don’t have to dig far below the surface to see some nasty, bitter people ranting one way or the other. Anybody indulging it to attempt any sort of argument about the side they support must surely know they are risking hypocrisy.

      • Robin Stevenson

        Very true Robert, unfortunately, we seem to have our [biased] MSM jumping on anything coming from the, so-called, “Cybernats”, and what they don’t know, they make up, even dating back three years ago [Mr Hay] When we actually look to what’s being said – even on these pages – but in particular on our main stream media [MSM] forums, we get the true picture of who the real abusers are? Of course we won’t hear of any of those? we will be subjected to the rantings of our dailies columnists telling the world how “Bad SNP” are. Meanwhile these same [so called] journalists, are quite at liberty to call us whatever they choose, and there’s not a damn thing we can do about it.

  21. iantinkler

    There is something, it may not be fascism, but is truly nasty in the SNP woodwork. There was a time when CyberNAT trolls were regarded as no more than occasional nut-cases crawling out from under stones with their anonymous death threats and filthy insults but it looks as if this goes rather deeper. We had, the ominous Jim Sillars , Scottish independence: former deputy leader claimed there will be a “day of reckoning” in the event of a Yes vote. Then the JK Rowling being subject to death threats and fowl abuse. Now we have a SNP standing candidate (Edinburgh South) Mr Neil Hay being exposed as an “anonymous troll who described the majority of Scots as traitors (all non-independence voters). Neil Hay, who is standing in Edinburgh South, referred to supporters of the UK as “quislings”. Closer to home such insults were happily thrown around by independence supporters at the Athing Debate , Geordie Jacobson and myself being barracked from the floor , “traitors” being one of the less insulting taunts. The SNP may not be fascists, just some of their supporters are behaving very much like them. It is an interesting point, Sturgeon condemns such behavior, but takes no action whatsoever to stamp it out. Mr Neil Hay, is still standing as a potential SNP MP, he openly believes and claims, all those whom oppose Independence are Scottish traitors and quislings.

    • Robin Stevenson

      Utter Balderdash, [as ever] get your facts right Ian – It’ll be a first – see above, and for goodness sake please read the links, it’ll save me correcting you time and time again.

      • ian tinkler

        Robin Stevenson, your links absolutely confirm what I have written. No amount of gloss or spin hides the fact that Neil Hay is an anonymous cyberNat troll. Only when exposed as such does he offer an apology! Sturgeon condemns such behavior, but takes no action whatsoever to stamp it out. Mr Neil Hay, is still standing as a potential SNP MP. I need no link to confirm the insults at the Athing Debate. That was well reported by “The Times” at the time. The RK Rowley death threats were in the public domain at that time, Jim Sillars , “day of reckoning” also public knowledge. You claim absolute fact as “Utter Balderdash,” . Well that says an awful lot about your integrity Robin Stevenson. Nothing more need be said.

    • Robert Duncan

      Mr Tinkler, the only instance I have seen of Mr Hay even using the word quislings was in reference to this article:
      http://bbc.scotlandshire.co.uk/index.php/city-news/53-quislings.html

      To take that as seriously as you appear to is almost as misguided as those attempting to suggest there was any doubt that Salmond’s “I’ll write the Labour budget!” were remotely serious.

  22. ian tinkler

    Robert Duncan, perhaps you should look a bit harder.
    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/snp-candidate-sorry-over-twitter-trolling-1-3751958
    AN SNP election candidate has apologised after posting offensive messages on Twitter likening anti-independence campaigners to Nazi collaborators and disparaging the elderly.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-scotland-32433723
    SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon has condemned social media comments by one of her party’s UK election candidates.

    • Robert Duncan

      You’ll note Mr Tinkler that your article contains not a single screengrab or even full quote of the “tweets” in question. I’d suggest it is you who needs to look further given you’ve clearly just accepted the reporting of it without making any effort to view the comments in question.

      The “quislings” comment was this: http://i.imgur.com/AAjpDKX.jpg

      The absence of quotation marks may be misleading but it is a direct copy of the linked article’s headline, an innocuous and very clearly facetious article.

      The comment about the elderly was this: http://i.imgur.com/HjHj7qo.jpg

      Worse than the first certainly, and I imagine not something he would say without the veil of anonymity, but again very clearly meant in jest.

      The tweets are misguided and very silly, but your furore is massively at odds with what has actually happened. Sturgeon has condemned it. Her only other course of action would be to have Hay stand down, which would mean the SNP forfeiting a seat they are on course to win, given that it is too late to have another candidate take Mr Hay’s place. That would be a rather extreme reaction to what is at worst some distasteful humour.

      • ian tinkler

        Robert Duncan, surely Nicola Sturgeon’s own words and Mr Neil Hay’s own apology, would indicate this was anything but a casual incident. Only the very pedantic would require more proof of the nastiness of a troll in action, especially one whom tweets anonymously. Does your own leanings towards the SNP prejudice your opinions here, perhaps? Trivializing an anonymous troll insult is not a clever move.

      • Robert Duncan

        As we have been over many times, I do not support the SNP. I will challenge comments from either side when I believe they are wrong or misleading. It may well happen to be on these comment pages that I more often challenge the views of unionist commenters but, hey, that is as much a reflection of their views as mine. Your constant attempts to polarise the debate in this manner are incredibly childish.

        Sturgeon and Hay’s comments were politicians dealing with hostile media coverage. Arguing in any way would do no favours, so you nip it in the bud, condemn it/apologise, and move on. Those on the outside can happily comment on over the top the coverage has been.

  23. Haydn Gear

    I have waded through all the invective filled opinions and comments above and I am reminded of playground actions of those hooligans who know no better.Is it not possible for correspondents to adopt a reasonable and civilised stance or are they so full of themselves that nobody else can ever be right. It seems to me that there are some people who are up themselves in a dark and nasty place.

    • iantinkler

      Haydn Gear, Impressive observation, perhaps a futile observation, personal experience maybe?

  24. iatinkler

    Robin Stevenson
    April 24th, 2015 21:07
    Very true Robert, unfortunately, we seem to have our [biased] MSM jumping on anything coming from the, so-called, “Cybernats”, and what they don’t know, they make up, even dating back three years ago [Mr Hay] When we actually look to what’s being said – even on these pages – but in particular on our main stream media [MSM] forums, we get the true picture of who the real abusers are? Of course we won’t hear of any of those? we will be subjected to the rantings of our dailies columnists telling the world how “Bad SNP” are. Meanwhile these same [so called] journalists, are quite at liberty to call us whatever they choose, and there’s not a damn thing we can do about it.

    WELL DOES THAT NOT SAY IT ALL.

    • iatinkler

      Freedom of the press, O dear, , your own words, Robin Stevenson, “Meanwhile these same [so called] journalists, are quite at liberty to call us whatever they choose.” I love you Robin, best propagandist for the SNP ever.

      • Robert Sim

        You can relax, Ian. Danus Skene is a principled individual who has never been involved in anything like this and who will make an excellent MP for Shetland and Orkney.

    • Robin Stevenson

      Hmm…I believe you’ve lost something on the translation Ian, but hey ho! it’s not as if there’s any change there?

  25. Haydn Gear

    I’m more than happy to bow to Ian Tinkler’s wider experience and superior knowledge. LOL

    • iantinkler

      Haydn Gear, Does your sarcastic comment mean you have joined us lesser mortals in that group you previously referenced “It seems to me that there are some people who are up themselves in a dark and nasty place.” Good to have you in the playground with us. Have you heard the one about Pots, kettles and black. Now have you something intelligent to add beyond carping criticism?

  26. iantinkler

    I have no problem with Danus Skene, Robert, I just feel his wish to serve rather spoils his judgement. One thing humanity does not need is peoples fragmenting into selfish little tribes. No doubt the Scots are special people, but no better than any others. Nationalism is a cancer humanity can do well without. Just look at the Trolls and assorted scum it has already spawned, on both sides of this debate.

    • Robert Sim

      At least we’re agreed he’ll make an excellent MP for this constituency, Ian.

      • iantinkler

        Robert Sim, not hard to to do better than his predecessor. but for God sake , Nationalist!!

  27. David Spence

    ‘ Nationalism is a cancer humanity ‘

    Ian, you only have to look across the pond to see an extreme version of this…….where only 4.5% of the worlds population takes from the planet so much more than it ever needs……….in real terms, the USA consumes over 31% of all global resources, and produces 25% of all pollution.

    This country puts itself first, the man-made concept of money first, as a consequence of this man-made concept, greed, selfishness and wealth come second.

    The USA population from the day they are born until they die, are subjected to a barrage of egotistical, self important and total submission to their Government regardless to the actions and consequences this Government does under the lies, brain-washing and obedience they force feed their population under the guise of ‘ freedom, democracy (there is no democracy in the States – the military and corporate businesses dictate who gets into the White House) and imperial/commercial expansion.

    We are brainwashed into believing this country is our ally, but in reality, we are very much on our own…….unless, of course, such alliance will only be beneficial to the USA in this falsehood of a relationship.

  28. Haydn Gear

    Ian Tinkler old chap, I feel sure that if I keep reading your informed and deeply thought provoking letters something resembling intelligence may rub off on me but I won’t be holding my breath !!!!!!!!! I don’t find the prospect of suicide too appealing. LOL, LOL (PS Cheer up! )